Podcast episode · American Alchemy · 13 April 2026
48 hours with Bob Lazar and Luigi Vendittelli
Jesse Michels spends two days with Bob Lazar and Luigi Vendittelli, maker of S4: The Bob Lazar Story, around the film's release in April 2026, with NASA engineer Charles Buhler by video link. Lazar retells S-4 with new details: the sport model came from an underwater dig, only three of nine hangars held craft he saw, a voice on the radio during the test flight, and his own lab work on what he now calls 'another force, not gravity'. Vendittelli's map evidence turns out to rest on a USGS receipt stamp, while John Lear's dated 1989 test-flight tape stands.
Timeline
On the recordWitness testimonyAlleged / one person's word
People across the timeline · click a name or a dot
Click a person to follow their thread.
1950s
Townsend Brown's capacitor thrustIn air explained by ion wind; vacuum disputed
1959–62
Nitinol at the Naval Ordnance LabShape-memory alloy; Roswell 'memory metal' link is inference
c. 1995
Orange disc at the Black MailboxAnonymous students' tape, via Logan Paul
1999–2000
United Nuclear foundedLater raided by CPSC (2000s) and FBI (2017)
2016 on
Buhler's vacuum thrust testsAbout 2,000 runs; company claims, not replicated
3 Apr 2026
S4: The Bob Lazar StoryFilm out; Lazar and Vendittelli on Rogan #2479
Apr 2026
This episodeLazar meets Buhler; home lab '100% confident'
The claims, checked
On the record (2)
Lear watched an S-4 craft through his telescope on 22 March 1989.Lear's dated on-camera narration; Lazar confirms it was while he worked there.firsthandJohn LearArea 51 and S-4 go public
Bismuth and element 115 share a column and five valence electrons; bismuth is the most diamagnetic element.Chemistry is record; the step to space-time engineering is speculation.analysis
Witness testimony (4)
Teller remembered him from Los Alamos and pointed him to EG&G and S-4.The 1982 Los Alamos Monitor jet-car story is real; Teller, filmed later, refused to say if he knew Lazar.firsthandEdward TellerEG&G
Nine hangars; he saw the sport model, a 'jello mold' and a 'top hat' with one hole shot up through its brim.He saw three craft, not nine; corrects the film (one hole, not two).firsthandArea 51 and S-4 go public
A candle flame froze, a black ball formed in the air and a watch stopped at the emitter's focus.Firsthand; the watch test was left out of the film.firsthandArea 51 and S-4 go public
The field is another force, not gravity.His view now; says his own lab has results and he is '100% confident' he can duplicate it. Nothing shown.firsthandBob Lazar
Alleged / one person's word (8)
The sport model was found by the Navy in an underwater 'archaeological dig'.New. Barry told him; never in the documents Lazar saw.secondhandBarry Castillo → Bob Lazar → told itArea 51 and S-4 go public
His predecessor and others died when a team cut into a running reactor at the test site.Told to him by Barry; told before.secondhandBarry Castillo → Bob Lazar → told itArea 51 and S-4 go public
2022 Google Earth imagery shows heavy vehicle traffic at the S-4 site.Images not seen here; date and coordinates to find.analysisArea 51 and S-4
An enhanced aerial photo from 17 miles away shows S-4's slanted hangar doors.Contrast enhancement of a known photo; origin to trace.analysisArea 51 and S-4
Six people who could place Lazar at S-4 were threatened in 1989 and never came forward.Knapp's account, via Vendittelli.secondhandGeorge Knapp → Luigi Vendittelli → told itGeorge KnappArea 51 and S-4 go public
Two students filmed an orange wobbling disc at the Black Mailbox around 1995.Anonymous; no names or original tape. A lead.anonymousLogan Paultwo students → Logan Paul → told it
Buhler gets thrust in hard vacuum at about 400 V, sometimes with the power off.Buhler is a real NASA electrostatics engineer; the work is private (Exodus), not peer reviewed or replicated.firsthandCharles BuhlerThomas Townsend Brown
An 'Admiral' at MJ-1 had Lazar hired so the story could leak through a man who could be discredited.Lear's claim; Michels suggests Mike McConnell. Speculation.secondhandunknown → John Lear → told itJohn LearMajestic 12
Doesn't hold as stated (5)
The USGS changed the Papoose Lake map eight days after Lazar went public to remove the road to S-4.The 23 May 1989 date is the USGS archive's 'received file copy' stamp on a provisional map compiled from 1968 photos. Whether a road east of the lake was dropped is still open.analysisUSGS Papoose Lake map, 1989 provisional editionArea 51 and S-4
Element 115 was first made at Darmstadt.First made at Dubna (reported 2004); GSI Darmstadt confirmed it in 2013.firsthandArea 51 and S-4 go public
Vallée wrote about Lazar's drink and memory lapses in Messengers of Deception.That book is from 1979; Vallée wrote about Lazar in Revelations (1991).analysisJacques Vallée
Burkhard Heim moved to the US and worked for Lockheed in the 1950s.Heim stayed in Germany. Extended Heim Theory's six forces is a real proposal.analysis
Nolan's bismuth-magnesium sample came from Ubatuba.Layered Bi/Mg is 'Art's Parts' (1996); Ubatuba (1957) is nearly pure magnesium.analysisGarry NolanImproved instrumental techniques, including isotopic analysis, applicable to the characterization of unusual materials with potential relevance to aerospace forensics